Commercial derivative works? Yay or nay?

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cmsteffen
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Commercial derivative works? Yay or nay?

Post by cmsteffen »

First off, I want to say I love BFRPG, and I'm grateful that it's available to the public as free PDFs and at-cost print books. I think it's a great way to get new players involved in the roleplaying hobby, because it lowers the cost of getting started in the hobby. People are a lot more likely to be interested in giving it a shot if they can get all the books they need for free rather than dropping $150 on a three-part core set of books.

That being said, I'm curious how you (Solomoriah) feel about someone creating a commercial derivative of your work.

I've been playing with an idea for a campaign setting for a long time, and I'd been considering crafting my own system in which to run the game, but that's just too much work when all I really want to do is make a world in which people can play. I've fallen in love with the simplicity and ease of adoption of BFRPG, and I have already begun thinking up some house rules I could use to make the system work a little better for my campaign setting and play style.

Now, I recognize that I could publish my campaign setting as a system-independent OGL publication, something that would work with BFRPG, Labyrinth Lord, and other OSR products, but publishing the house rules along with the campaign setting would be a little more difficult, as I'd have to either make them generic enough to work with any of the systems, or I'd have to write a different house-rules document for each system.

What I'd rather do, however, is publish a compendium which includes a modified version of the BFRPG core rules (designed to work exactly as I'd like them to work within my campaign), along with the campaign setting and bestiary, all in a single volume. That way, if someone wanted to play in the world I've created, all they'd need is the one book, and they'd be able to get started right away.

I envision a book with high production quality, good layout, full-color art, like what you'd see coming out of one of the well-known game studios. A nice hardcover (or possibly paperback) that you would be proud to have on your shelf.

Of course, for all the work it would take to create such a tome, I imagine there would be multiple parties involved in its creation, each wanting to be reimbursed for their time and effort. So I'd want to be able to sell this product for a profit. This is where my question lies:

If BFRPG is an open-source project, using the OGL, does that mean that you'd be okay with someone making a commercial derivative work? I'd be happy to sent a percentage of the profits your way to help support BFRPG — after all, I love what you've created, and I want to support the project. What hoops would I need to jump through in order to make this project a reality? I've read and understood the OGL... I guess I'm just asking if you're cool if I publish a heavily-modified version of your ruleset — including some of your wording verbatim — as part of my project, for profit. (i.e. I'd include the core rulebook mostly as-is, just with the necessary parts replaced, revised, removed or added.)

Sorry for the long-winded post. What are your thoughts?
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chiisu81
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Re: Commercial derivative works? Yay or nay?

Post by chiisu81 »

Ultimately Solo will have to respond to this, but I have a few questions:

1. How extensive do you envision your house-rules being? Why not just release the campaign setting with them if not? Those of us in the OSR are OK with adjusting to our preferred rule-set.
2. What is your track record? Is this your first attempt at writing and releasing an RPG product?
3. How do you intend to pay your artists, layout designer, etc.? They aren't gonna want a share of potential profits, they get paid for their work before the product ever (or if) comes out.
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Hywaywolf
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Re: Commercial derivative works? Yay or nay?

Post by Hywaywolf »

Like was just asked, do you have experience publishing gaming materials and/or do you already have a ready made audience waiting to buy something you publish? If not then you might want to ask yourself why someone would buy your campaign setting when they can just use the many adventures posted here for free. Or any of the many B/X D&D and B/X simulacrums modules that already exist.

But then again, I go into a game store almost every day and it is jam packed with board games of every persuasion so people are still buying stuff. Not sure how many adventure modules they sell though.

If what you want is to see your idea in a professional format in the hands of players you might just want to develop it here under the BFRPG umbrella and get tons of free playtesting, editing and advice. You won't make any money doing here but its not likely that you will anyway and this way more people will actually play it.
cmsteffen
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Re: Commercial derivative works? Yay or nay?

Post by cmsteffen »

These are some good questions.

I'm a long-time DM and RPG hobbyist. I've been crafting this campaign setting for years. It's a hobby project of mine, but one I hold dear. I've recently begun organizing the content into a format suitable for publication, based on some heavy study of some of the best and most successful campaign settings produced for some of the world's most popular RPG systems. Whether it ever becomes a commercial product or not, I still intend to produce and release it to the public. However, I'd really like to see it reach its highest potential, a well-crafted tome that I could display proudly on my bookshelf.

I've never released a commercial RPG product before. I have close friends who have Kickstarted similar projects and who know about the ins and outs of publication, design, etc. I fully intend to pay artists for quality art, and I know I'll be paying up-front. I've got a few artists in mind already. I'd like to raise some of the money via crowd-funding, and the amount raised will determine a number of factors, including how much art (by how many artists) I am able to include. I will be doing some initial funding out-of-pocket as necessary to get the project off the ground before I ever bring it to Kickstarter, and I can guarantee that at least 75% of the content will have already been written before the Kickstarter ever goes live. I don't expect to be funded for a project that doesn't exist.

As for simply including house rules rather than publishing a modified version of the core rules, this is definitely a possibility. If this is the more feasible option, then this is the route I'll take. I'm simply asking about derivative works because I'd like to see what is possible before I make my decision. Basically, I'm exploring my options.

The house rules I intend to include are fairly extensive. I'll be abandoning the three non-human races, adding a slew of classes, reworking how magic works, creating new monsters, spells, races and classes, changing a number of the rules, adding new rules... It's a lot to cover. This is why I think it might be a good idea to have a complete set of rules in the campaign book. By doing so, I can include the complete, modified rules (without players and GMs having to constantly cross-reference my book vs. the BFRPG core rulebook), followed by the campaign setting information, including a bestiary, grimoire and atlas. This is more than just a series of adventures, this is a full-fledged setting, complete with plenty of mythology and rife with hooks upon which future adventures can be hung.

In response to Hywaywolf, it's absolutely possible that this might just end up being another free BFRPG supplement. But I like to dream big, and I like to know what's possible. Just because I'm inquiring about commercial derivatives doesn't mean it'll happen... but it's something I'm considering, so I'd like to know what it would take.

tl;dr:
Direct answers to chiisu81's questions:

1. Extensive enough that I'd consider writing and including a complete set of modified rules in order to avoid making players cross-reference between BFRPG and my house rules.
2. I don't have a track record, but I have connections to those who do.
3. I'll pay them up-front, as soon as I determine the amount of art and design work that can be funded. The only reason I would offer Solo and the BFRPG creators a percentage rather than a flat rate is that I'll be building upon the foundation of their hard work, making them co-creators of my product, so I'd want to see them get a cut of any future profits the setting might make.
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Solomoriah
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Re: Commercial derivative works? Yay or nay?

Post by Solomoriah »

You may, under the OGL, publish a customized copy of the game rules. You may NOT use the name "Basic Fantasy Role-Playing Game" or any derivative thereof to describe the game you publish in this way. If you use any of the Core Rules materials at all, you MUST included the full OGL copy as I present it in the rulebook; it's the only place in your rulebook where you are allowed to name the game (in the copyrights section of the OGL) and you are REQUIRED to retain each and every copyright statement that appears there, and to add your own at the end.

Given that you cannot use the name, you would also remove the Product Identity License text. You'd have to be sure that, except for the copyright statement in the OGL text, you have removed or replaced each and every instance of the name "Basic Fantasy Role-Playing Game" or "Basic Fantasy RPG" or any other derivative or diminutive that may appear.

And you can't use basically any of the artwork; art remains the property of the original artist, and I have an perpetual, non-exclusive license to use it. You'd have to negotiate terms with each of the artists (or their heirs, in the case of Steve Zieser, who passed away a few years ago). The only art you could retain is the small sample dungeon map, as I did that and I can grant you the use of it. If you are making a profit from this work, I'm sure each of those artists would want a cut.

And to be clear, that also means you MAY NOT EVER use the name "Basic Fantasy Role-Playing Game" or derivatives thereof in ANY advertising of your work. Not ever. You would fall under the part of the OGL that prohibits you from comparing your game to any other game, as well as the part that prevents you from using someone else's Product Identity.

These are the reasons why, despite the fact that I share the text very freely, there are no derivative versions of our rules anywhere as far as I know.

NOW ON THE OTHER HAND, if you create your world-book and include a section of alternative rules to work with BFRPG, but do not reproduce the game itself, you fall under the Product Identity License and can advertise it as compatible in the ways explained in that license. You'd be able to put "Designed for use with the Basic Fantasy Role-Playing Game" right on the cover.
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Solomoriah
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Re: Commercial derivative works? Yay or nay?

Post by Solomoriah »

I guess, having re-read your last post, I should clarify my position.

What I just posted has to do with you unilaterally creating your work, without input from me or other Basic Fantasy Project members. I've described what you can do, what you cannot do, and what you must do in that case.

You are, however, proposing a partnership of sorts, and I do respect that and I thank you for thinking of us. But I have to say no. The Basic Fantasy Role-Playing Game community built this game, not just me; I'm the BDFL (Benevolent Dictator For Life), in terms used in the larger Open Source community, but I respect and appreciate the contributions of each and every member, and they all knew when they contributed that the game was meant to be free. Even if I did not feel strongly about that myself, accepting a percentage would be troublesome; the tiny profit I make now pays for the website and buys a couple dozen books a year that I give away at conventions and public appearances. If I made more, I'd have to figure out how to use or distribute it. I expressly don't want that.

So again, thanks for asking, but I really have to say no.
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Caelestis
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Re: Commercial derivative works? Yay or nay?

Post by Caelestis »

Not really sure it is my place to leap in on this conversation but I'm going to anyway :)

From what I have seen there is a slew of people producing content at the moment, and that is absolutely fantastic. I also think if you have a project that you want to complete then you should work out how best to do it. I would seriously recommend doing some smaller project first and look to get your name known in its own right. You could certainly do worse than maybe writing some bits and releasing them to this community for free.

From the feedback on here and from what I have seen from elsewhere I would have said what I tend to see is the "Compatible with" bit as was suggested higher up seems to be the method that often garners most success.

All that said I have to say I admire your passion and your determination and your love for your world and setting. Whatever you chose to do I hope it all works out how you want it to!
cmsteffen
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Re: Commercial derivative works? Yay or nay?

Post by cmsteffen »

I'd like to say a big thanks to Solomoriah and everyone who has contributed to this thread!

Solomoriah, you answered the questions I had quite thoroughly, both from a legal and personal standpoint. This cleared things up for me quite well, and will help me decide how I wish to move forward with my project.

I think what I'll do is keep the homebrew rules segregated from the campaign setting for the time being, and determine later on whether there's enough homebrew rules (and whether they're important enough) to warrant creating a whole new core rulebook to accompany the campaign. It's quite possible that I could publish the homebrew rules as an entirely separate document from the campaign setting, allowing both to fall under the "compatible with" umbrella and to be implemented independently, providing greater flexibility for players and GMs.

Thanks for answering my questions and for being supportive!
Poo
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Re: Commercial derivative works? Yay or nay?

Post by Poo »

I had a search but couldn't see the off shoot of this question asked anywhere, so thought I'd pop it here, for now.

And apologies, I know I am a layman and should do my research... I have tried... But no matter what I read there is always some strange unidentified grey area.

My question is this: Can I use the material contained on this website, manuals, adventures, creatures, castles, classes, etc; in a novel? Of course, changing names where necessary, and not using any artwork (unless permission is granted), though much of it would be customised.

Background: I am writing a LitRPG/GameLit, as much as I enjoy creating my own system, it would be much easier to be able to based that system on something solid without worry about breaking a copyright law, or burning a bridge that really shouldn't be burnt.
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Solomoriah
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Re: Commercial derivative works? Yay or nay?

Post by Solomoriah »

I am the rightsholder for the Core Rules, so whether or not the OGL grants you the right to use it, I can separately do so. However, virtually all our supplements, adventures, etc. have multiple rightsholders, all of whom have agreed to OGL distribution but who would all have to be identified and contacted to give permission for non-OGL uses.

I'm not aware of any reason you can't just apply the OGL to your novel; you could declare as Product Identity named characters, places, etc. which would give you enough exclusivity to protect your investment of time, if that's a concern. Simply follow the requirements of the OGL with respect to your book. Be sure to copy all the copyright statements found in Section 15 of the OGL of each work you borrow from, inserting them in some kind of order into your own book's Section 15 and adding your copyright statement at the end. Feel free to look over the text preceding the license in the Core Rules for an example of how to identify Product Identity; you can even copy and modify my text found there, as it is, of course, covered by the OGL.
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