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teaman
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Re: Spellswords

Post by teaman »

Would this illustration work to add some artwork to Spellswords?
sword.png
sword.png (1.67 MiB) Viewed 2544 times
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Blorpy
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Re: Spellswords

Post by Blorpy »

Cool drawing, teaman! I’ll include it in the next release!
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teaman
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Re: Spellswords

Post by teaman »

Blorpy wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:37 pm Cool drawing, teaman! I’ll include it in the next release!
Thanks so much, glad to be of service.
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TrickyNikki
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Re: Spellswords

Post by TrickyNikki »

I think you can make the dice 1d6 that changes to 1d8 at around 7th level. However, due to this downgrade, you could also give the Spellsword an ability to grant magical weapons to allies. At the same level, introduce a 10-15' aura that makes all ally weaponry within range deal magical damage.
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Blorpy
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Re: Spellswords

Post by Blorpy »

For sure. The aura you're describing could also be a spell effect rather than a class ability, given that the SS already has a few.

As for further nerfing the class, I ran a test today and found the R5 SS is actually rather under-powered next to any other class.

My test involved an XP budget of 1,000,000 with the following assumptions: +3 weapons (one handed if melee), +3 armour (or ring if can't use armour), +1 shield if class allows. Monster AC 18, Monster SV F15. DPR = Damage per round. Spellsword is wearing +3 leather and no shield, hence spells are half range in this test.

Magic User
Level 13, HP 26, AB: +5, AC: 14
Melee/Missile DPR: 2.2
# Spells per day: 18
Innate abilities: N/A
Damage spells:
- Disintegrate a) Save vs Spells or die, b) roughly 50% chance of this, c) 2 casts, d) some utility (could be used to destroy object), e) affects only one target.
- Fireball a) 45 damage, save vs spells for half, b) adjusted damage approx 35, c) 230' range, d) 20' radius, e) some utility, could start a fire or melt gold, f) 4 casts

Cleric
Level 18, HP 40, AB: +8, AC: 22
Melee DPR: 4.1, Missile DPR: 3
# Spells per day: 24
Innate abilities: Turn Undead
Top Damage spells:
- Blade Barrier a) 52 damage, save DTH for 50% or 0% dmg; b) adjusted damage approx 26, c) 19 round duration, d) range 90', e) defensive control utility, f) 3 casts
- Wall of Fire a) 25 damage, save vs Spells for 5 damage, b) double damage to undead, c) adjusted damage 15, d) 180' range, e) 3 casts

Spellsword
Level 14, HP 39, AB: +5, AC: 16
Melee/Missile DPR: 3
# Spells per day: 8 (+overcasting)
Innate abilities: Overcasting, Spell Pool
Top Damage spells:
- Fireball a) 49 damage, save vs spells for half, b) adjusted damage 37, c) 120' range, d) 20' radius, e) some utility, could start a fire or melt gold, f) 2 casts
- Ice Storm a) 21 damage, save vs spells for half, b) adjusted damage 16, c) 310' range, d) 20' radius, f) not much utility—mostly a long range damage spell, g) 1 cast

Paladin
Level 13, HP 48, AB: +8, AC: 22
Melee/Missile DPR: 4.1
# Spells per day: 4
Innate abilities: Protection from Evil, Detect Evil, Lay on Hands, Turn Undead
Top 2 Spells: (Paladin has only one damage spell so included one of the scarier ones)
- Spiritual Hammer a) 6 rounds, b) DPR 3, c) 2 casts
- Hold Person a) Save vs Spells or be taken out of combat and then possibly killed; b) can be cast at a group, c) 2 casts

It's also worth pointing out that more of the SS's current spell list is divine than arcane. For instance, of its first level spells, 6 are Cleric spells, 1 is Druid, 3 are MU, and 2 are new.

I would argue, then, that overcasting being affordable is somewhat crucial to this build. We could increase the damage taken by it, but then might want to consider giving SS a spell progression more in line with the Cleric, and making MU spells 1 level higher. Another alternate boost would be to improve SS's martial abilities by giving it a Fighter's AB rather than MU's, bringing melee damage per round from 3 to 4.1, which would be more in line with the Cleric and Paladin in the test.

I think using a system of triangulation like this applied at various xp benchmarks, it could be possible to figure out the actual xp value of hit points vs martial damage output vs abilities, using the traditional classes as reference points. Granted there is a lot of complexity in there and it should all be taken into some account but I think it’s doable. It will just take a lot of thought.
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Blorpy
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Re: Spellswords

Post by Blorpy »

Big R6 update on this. I increased spell slots substantially to be more competitive with the Cleric (but just behind). It might need some nerfing after this, but that's okay.

Here is an example of how I was looking at it (maintaining assumptions about armour/weapons from last post):

XP Budget: 10,000 XP

Cleric, Level 4, HP 14, AB: +2, AC: 21
Melee DPR: 1.9, Missile DPR: 1.4
# Spells/day 3, Knowable spells: 16
Innate abilities: Turn Undead

Spellsword-R6, Level 4, HP 14, AB: +3, AC: 16
Melee/Missile DPR: 2.2
# Spells/day 3, Knowable spells: 12
Innate abilities: overcasting, spell pool

XP Budget: 100,000 XP

Cleric, Level 8, HP 28, AB: +4, AC: 21
Melee DPR: 2.6, Missile DPR: 1.9
# Spells 8, Knowable spells: 32

Spellsword-R6, Level 7, HP 24, AB: +5, AC: 16
Melee/Missile DPR: 3
# Spells/day 7, Knowable spells: 36

500,000 XP budget

Cleric Level 12, HP 34, AB: +6, AC: 21
Melee DPR: 3.4, Missile DPR: 2.4
# Spells/day 16, Knowable spells: 40

Spellsword-R6, Level 10, HP 33, AB: +6, AC: 16
Melee/Missile DPR: 3.4
# Spells/day 13, Knowable Spells: 48

Obviously Spellsword could have the same AC as Cleric, but would need to then sacrifice their spells having any kind of range. Hence why I went with leather +3 in these examples. Also didn’t give the spellsword a shield so that I could assume they have a longbow +3 for calculating missile damage.
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TrickyNikki
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Re: Spellswords

Post by TrickyNikki »

Out of the proposed changes, I would suggest giving them more spells to cast earlier, and one level higher (as you did in your update). I would make the damage 1d6 times spell level +2 (I think this +2 will just put a nice cherry on this whole thing) for overcharge and I would also give them one or two sustainability spells, like a Cure Light Wounds variant that heals 2d6+2 as a second level spell, could call it Cure Battle Wounds. Make it a thing that cannot be accessed during combat, only after. Hence the name.

I would not give it + AB of a Fighter, perhaps one of a cleric at most.

Your Current Spells:
Charge Object - I would change this to either a 1d4 per caster level or give it a nice 3d8 - 4d6 damage output. Otherwise, it's kinda useless? I would also make it arcane/magical damage, instead of fire. We have enough fire damage spells in the game. Also, specify the range. I would consider 20/40/60.

Kinetic Push - I like the spell, I think the name can be more evocative however. Disarming Wind or such would be cooler.

Lightning Blade - Perhaps a crazy idea, but maybe the blade can ignore Shields as the weapon will simply just go through them? So if an enemy has a shield, they do not benefit from it? Keeps it as a cooler utility spell for later.

Pyrotechnics - I'd rename it Dazing Volley and also specify for how long the people would be blinded. I suggest 1d4+1 rounds.


More spell ideas from me will come.

Those would be my suggestions for the time being.
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Blorpy
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Re: Spellswords

Post by Blorpy »

Awesome! Thanks for the feedback, Nikki! Okay, lots to unpack here! I'm going to push back on a few things, but hopefully in a good way, so bear with me. Ha ha!
TrickyNikki wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:24 am Out of the proposed changes, I would suggest giving them more spells to cast earlier, and one level higher (as you did in your update).
I'm slightly confused by this. Do you mean to say that the R6 update already covers this? Or that the update covers one aspect of this but not the other?
TrickyNikki wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:24 am I would make the damage 1d6 times spell level +2 (I think this +2 will just put a nice cherry on this whole thing) for overcharge and I would also give them one or two sustainability spells, like a Cure Light Wounds variant that heals 2d6+2 as a second level spell, could call it Cure Battle Wounds. Make it a thing that cannot be accessed during combat, only after. Hence the name.
I agree with upping the spell-burn damage a little. 1d6+2 would work, though I'm more partial to 1d6+1. This ability is meant to burn resources but not necessarily be too punitive. Consider that many class abilities are able to be used indefinitely at no cost. Turn Undead, for instance. Spell-burn is likely to only make a difference in the early to mid levels when healing is more sparse. It's a "hail Mary" option. At high levels I doubt casters run out of spells very often, though I've never played a high level game so I wouldn't know first hand. 1d6+1 at least keeps the SS from casting heal light wounds on themselves over and over. And at average 18 damage per fireball cast I doubt this has much potential for abuse at 1d6+1. Hit points are a hot commodity in this game, so 18 damage is going to hurt even for a max level character.

Regarding healing, I'm a little reluctant about displacing the Cleric's role too much. If I were going to add more healing, I'd probably use the 4th level cure serious wounds spell. I'm not saying never, but I'm not quite sold on the idea yet.
TrickyNikki wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:24 am I would not give it + AB of a Fighter, perhaps one of a cleric at most.
I thought this initially. At a glance, the Fighter's AB can seem too much for a caster class, but when you do the math, that turns out to be an illusion. The Fighters’s AB mostly keeps in step with the cleric’s up until the cleric hits max level, after which point the Fighter surpasses it by a little. The XP values tell the whole story better than the levels. For instance, in my million xp benchmark test, Fighters and Clerics had exactly the same AB of +8 (fighter level 15, cleric level 19).

The real advantage the Fighter has, aside from universal proficiency, is hit points. As I said, hit points are a hot commodity, and Fighters easily outpace the Cleric and the Spellsword in this regard. The SS even lags a bit behind the Cleric until after cleric hits its peak. And considering the Spellsword has spell penalties for armour, I feel that using the Fighter AB isn't at all game breaking, and is in fact the only way to keep it competitive with the Cleric.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I think the Cleric makes for a more useful comparison with Spellsword. It is the natural mid point between fighter and mage, and most of the SS’s spells are in fact Cleric spells already. And although SS has some more flexibility, the Cleric has a number of crucial things the Spellsword doesn’t have, such as 1) access to all their spells right away, 2) access to level 6 spells, and 3) no armour restrictions. The SS’s versatility is indeed powerful, but they already pay for it in various ways. They could roll into battle wearing full plate and a shield, but now their fireball has a touch range. In essence, the armour restrictions are still there. They're just penalised in a totally different way. If they want their full use of spell ranges, they can go without armour, but now they're substantially behind what the MU can do. They don't have disintegrate and some of the crazier stuff MUs get, and they don't have the hit points of a Fighter, so they should at least be handy with a bow if it comes to that.
TrickyNikki wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:24 am Your Current Spells:
Charge Object - I would change this to either a 1d4 per caster level or give it a nice 3d8 - 4d6 damage output. Otherwise, it's kinda useless? I would also make it arcane/magical damage, instead of fire. We have enough fire damage spells in the game. Also, specify the range. I would consider 20/40/60.
Charge object could definitely use higher damage. I don't know if I'd go quite as high as you're proposing, given that it's only a 2nd level spell that can attack a 15' square, but having it scale is a good idea. I think the throwing range would be the same as other thrown objects in the core rules. The throwing part isn't exactly part of the spell since that's a grenade attack, but adding a reminder of how throwing grenades works couldn't hurt.
TrickyNikki wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:24 am Kinetic Push - I like the spell, I think the name can be more evocative however. Disarming Wind or such would be cooler.
Pyrotechnics - I'd rename it Dazing Volley and also specify for how long the people would be blinded. I suggest 1d4+1 rounds.
Regarding the naming conventions, I had a few reasons for using “push” and “pyrotechnics”. Firstly, they’re a nod to 1e AD&D. I couldn’t really import those spells as written since they’re sorta complicated, dealing in minute granularity like 1/4 foot intervals for example, so these are modern re-imaginings of those spells. Secondly, I feel like they fall in line with BX/BF spell names, which are sort of understated. Third, "kinetic push" reminds me of Star Wars "force push" ability from KOTOR (I think). Fourth, I actually like them like that, though I’d gladly change them if the greater community were to vote against me in a hypothetical poll. Lol.
TrickyNikki wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:24 am Lightning Blade - Perhaps a crazy idea, but maybe the blade can ignore Shields as the weapon will simply just go through them? So if an enemy has a shield, they do not benefit from it? Keeps it as a cooler utility spell for later.
I do like the idea of adding more utility to a given spell. Though I can imagine a few already, just by virtue of the fact that the blade is channelling electricity. Ha ha! Also, I probably should clarify this in the description, but it's meant to stack on top of whatever else your sword is already doing. I'll have to think more on this one.

Again, thanks for the help!
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TrickyNikki
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Re: Spellswords

Post by TrickyNikki »

1. The changes to spells you already implemented are good enough.
2. 1d6xSpell Level +2xAmount of times this ability has been used this day, is the way to go in my view.
3. Cure serious wounds creates a worse problem then my proposed spell, in fact it’s a far greater slap on the face to the cleric. I would not recommend that spell for SS.
4. I would just get rid of fireball, we could design much more interesting special spells for third level. Keeping cleric’s AB will make it easier to swallow other benefits that will come from the class being further altered.
5. In that case, either make it a 5 feet radius only and make it 3d8 damage or keep the 15 feet range and make it 2d8. 1d4 for a second level spell is absolute garbage Tier.
6. Nice homages to the game that came before. If that matters more than cool names, then keep it this way.
7. Lightning Blade is no brainier, you have to then state this addition works on top of everything else that weapon has.

If I am to propose and create spells with you for SS, would I be also in the credits as a co-creator? :)

I would also add that while balance is important, the class must also feel good in isolation. This is hard to achieve of course, but I’d advise that the focus would be on first making him cool and then powering him down. It’s much easier to power something down, then power it up in my experience.
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Blorpy
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Re: Spellswords

Post by Blorpy »

Ha ha, yes of course you can be in the credits. I'll include you in the next release.

I don't have time for a new release at the moment, but just wanted to fill you in on what I'm working on.

Firstly, I think it'll be simpler to change this to a Cleric subclass--like a servant of the primordial spirits kind of deal. There will be less confusion and disagreement by using that template, and I think it might actually fit what we're trying to do better than a fighter/mage anyway, and all the baggage that entails. It also gives us leeway to create 6th level spells.

I'm also on board with getting rid of fireball. That's really the magic-user's signature move, so let them have it. And I agree with not taking Cure Critical Wounds. Even though the Druid technically gets it too, we're making more of an offensive Cleric here. Also, it might somewhat break the spell-burning ability at higher levels, though it's negligible how much that would matter.

Also fully agree that Spellsword should have more signature spells. Here are the names of some proposed spells I'm working on:
Shockwave (high level version of kinetic push)
Enhance Spell (enhances a spell effect already in play)
Pillar of Smoke (chokes and blinds)
Magnetic pull (pulls held metal items out of people's hands)
Shatter Stone (splits a huge boulder in half, or can create a pit in a stone floor that causes some fall damage)
Shocking Grasp (an old spell that I don't think is in BFRPG yet - gives something to Spellswords who choose to stick with metal armour)
Ward Evil (light that causes evil creatures to flee - a bit like turn undead but not limited to undead and single use only)

I'm gonna keep the metal armour touch range limitation, but might impose no limitation on non-metal. Also thinking of letting the class add the bonus from magic staffs to their AC, but only when unarmoured.

Lastly, I'm going to do away with spell pooling and just stay in line with the Cleric template. Still keeping spell-burn/overcasting of course.
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