Monster Origins

Creating game materials? Monsters, spells, classes, adventures? This is the place!
Seven
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Re: Monster Origins

Post by Seven »

Apes that eat meat are not new, but they are not called "Carnivorous Ape".

If I google "carnivorous ape" and all the hits are from D&D, it's not a good sign.

If I google vampire, for example, there are no D&D hits on the first page.

A rename here would seem prudent.
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Boggo
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Re: Monster Origins

Post by Boggo »

Seven wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:15 pm Apes that eat meat are not new, but they are not called "Carnivorous Ape".

If I google "carnivorous ape" and all the hits are from D&D, it's not a good sign.

If I google vampire, for example, there are no D&D hits on the first page.

A rename here would seem prudent.
Conan has fought carnivorous apes, that were noted as such, also two common words together are not protectable, unless they are a unique expression, especially not if there exists in the world actual creatures that term describes.

Found the reference, it was in Conan the Freebooter, by Robert E. Howard and L. Sprague de Camp, published in 1968, and according to this article is almost certainly the inspiration for D&D
https://appendixnbookclub.com/2018/06/1 ... -nogueira/
Last edited by Boggo on Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Boggo
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Re: Monster Origins

Post by Boggo »

Hmm Arthur Conan Doyle seems to have had carnivorous apes in The Lost World as well (I don't remember them but I did just find 2 references (though one was to a tv series based on the book))
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Seven
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Re: Monster Origins

Post by Seven »

leon wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:51 pm
I agree that Talos from Jason and Argonauts is inspiration for golems and living statues. Today I was adding in the Silver Maid from The Thief of Bagdad movie, which seems exactly like a clockwork creature (which might be a better name than Living Statue).
From Borges' book:

The Golem is a jewish myth. "It was said of demons that they could make large and bulky creatures... but were incapable of creating anything delicate and frail...
Der Golem, a book by Gustav Meyrink, 1915. "A rabbi made an artificial man... by the power of a magic tablet which was placed under his tongue... One night, the rabbi forgot to take the tablet out... and the creature fell into a frenzy."

The flesh golem is Frankenstein's monster.

Jason had "bulls with brass feet and horns that breathed flames". Condillac has a statue of "sensitive marble". The boatman in the Arabian Night is "a man of brass with a tablet of lead on his breast inscribed with talismans...". There's also metal birds who nursed Ares. There is the boar "Gullinbursti", "This living piece of metalwork came from the forges of skilful dwarves". And then, there is Talos, the man of bronze.
leon wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:51 pm I've also noted lizard people from folklore (Pliny the Elder), but I think the Gorn from Star Trek match well. The Lizard from Marvel definitely predates 1974, but he's one guy who altered himself. Looks like Land of the Lost debuted in 1974.
Lizardmen are very popular as some sort of Qanon/illuminati conspiracy according to which important people are aliens. Who knew? Closest after that are Howard's Serpent men.

The concept is fine, but an alternate name might be a good idea. Reptilians?
Seven
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Re: Monster Origins

Post by Seven »

Rogues in the House, by Howard. Published in 1934.
Features "an intelligent ape-like hominid".

In actuality, the creatures are probably omnivore.
Carnivorous Apes as a name only makes sense if there are also vegetarian apes around.

The basic set I started with didn't have Beholders and Umber Hulks but I'm pretty sure it had Carnivorous Apes.
Seven
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Re: Monster Origins

Post by Seven »

In The Mermaid's Children by Poul Anderson, the spirit of the suicided is called a Vilja.
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LibraryLass
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Re: Monster Origins

Post by LibraryLass »

leon wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:53 pm Looks like Aboleth and Skum are originally from I1 Dwellers of the Forbidden City (1981) by David "Zeb" Cook.

Allip seems to appear first in the 3e Monster Manual in 2000. However, a few days ago, Matt said it's from 1e. I know it's not in the 2e MM. Got a reference from 1e?
I can confirm Allips do not appear in D&D prior to 3rd edition. Name arguably comes from German "Alp", meaning an elf, ghost, incubus, or nightmare.
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leon
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Re: Monster Origins

Post by leon »

I did find the phrase "carnivorous ape" in old books. See this google books search.

"He hunted and killed the horse , the reindeer , the urus , the mammoth , and the seal ; he roasted their flesh and broke their bones for marrow , and finally - to show he was man and not a carnivorous ape - he drew their portraits ." The Journal of Microscopy and Natural Science - Volume 8 - Page 54 1889

The "snow" qualifier is the part that seems unique.

Regarding Golems, I should have said "iron golem". I agree that clay golems are from mythology. All those other clockwork creatures are very nice to have, too.

If we rename lizard people, I'd go with Sciritae, which is the name Pliny the Elder used. But I also like the idea of giving one monster multiple names. For example, giant caecilia is fine, but common folk might call them cave worms. They do in my game, anyway.
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Solomoriah
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Re: Monster Origins

Post by Solomoriah »

If you can't find an origin for a monster, we are the origin and that's cool.
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Solomoriah
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Re: Monster Origins

Post by Solomoriah »

Lizard man is obvious, and if the exact thing we have isn't out there somewhere, it doesn't really matter. There's no particular art to calling a humanoid lizard a "lizard man." "Carnivorous ape" falls under that as well, it's an ape that eats meat.

The expression "exactly what it says on the tin" usually applies, as long as the monster is obvious.

Some monsters are another kind of problem. "Rust monsters" are a problem not because they aren't obviously named (it's a monster that rusts things) but because they aren't obvious monsters. As far as I know, before Gary thought of this way to torture players, nobody else did. Whereas, whether they are called "carnivorous ape" or "lizard man" there are plenty of stories pre-TSR that feature such creatures. Gary was, I think, inspired by the white apes of Burrough's Barsoom when he added similar monsters to his own game.
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