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Rosisha
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Re: Thoughts on Magic Users

Post Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:41 am

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Last edited by Rosisha on Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Magic User Discussion

Post Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:52 am

OK, before you start reading this, please note I do not mean to offend anyone nor do I mean to cause a war. I simply want to express my point and discuss why Magic Users aren't underpowered.

1. Most level 1 characters shouldn't fight more than 3 combats a day, and even 3 is pushing it. Remember this is old school role playing, not the new edition of Dungeons and Dragons (which most of us may have come from).
2. Magic users aren't simply restricted by their spells. They can still wack a kobold in the face and still think creatively.
3. Magic Users are supposedly the smart ones of the group. They are useful outside of combat for a multitude of reasons
4. For the same reason as point 3, perhaps have them be in charge of tactics? It depends on you and your group whether you will restrict them or give them enough freedom to be "useful" after they've used their 1 or 2 spells, even though they already are.
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daryen
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Re: Thoughts on Magic Users

Post Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:35 am

Here is where I see the dissonance coming from. On "OSR think" I see two big trends that keep coming up:

1) You aren't supposed to do a "one-fight a day" dungeon. That is viewed as munchkin and ridiculous. If you go into a dungeon and fight a band of goblins, kill them all, then leave, then the GM is *supposed* to replace them with something else because the players were negligent and didn't pursue on. Players are supposed to go in and clean out the dungeon in one go. If they don't, then the dungeon repopulates and they will never clean it out. This is the "correct" way to run a dungeon.

2) First level characters are supposed to be weak and in constant danger of dying. Gotta start out on the bottom rung and all of that. If you can't survive on your four hit points, you're doing it wrong. Also, you *must* start at first level or you are doing it all wrong. The initial struggle is the point and without starting at first level you are not getting the full experience.

These two "OSR think" points don't fit together. This also means that going into a dungeon as a first level character is moronic. A first level character shouldn't ever go into a dungeon. Instead, they should go find a nest of rats or a nearby tribe of goblins and experience point harvest until they can start to level up. Do the one-fight a day experience grind until you get to at least third level before even thinking of going into an actual dungeon. Or, if you have to go into a dungeon, go find the easiest fight possible, kill them, then run away. You can always come back and fight their replacements over and over until you get enough experience points to level up and try for the second room. Just know that you are going to fight that first level encounter over and over and over.

Further dissonance comes in with the idea that, playing first (and probably second) level is really just an experience point grind mission to gain enough experience points to get to a level that can actually last for more than one battle. And even then, getting to third level might not be enough. I always thought that artificial grind missions were a more modern invention, and they just don't seem to fit into the style of OSR. It seems like way too "gamist" of an approach for what OSR is "supposed to be".

Oh, yeah, and the thing that makes first level even worse is that you have no healing magic. That means healing your three points of damage is going to take a while, and your fighter's wounds are gonna keep you out of action for a month. Which really insures that the monster you killed in that one battle will be guaranteed to be replaced, and you will have to fight that battle all over again.
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Solomoriah
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Re: Thoughts on Magic Users

Post Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:50 am

daryen... never heard of the mindset of your point #1. Bizarre.

pirate... have you read my blog post on the subject?
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Dimirag
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Re: Thoughts on Magic Users

Post Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:52 pm

i know lots of people think the 1st way but never new it was an OSR thinking, I always saw it as a "new school" thing that some people want to import to OSR games...

As for the blog Solo is speaking:
Part 1
Part 2
Discussion
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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Re: Thoughts on Magic Users

Post Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:44 am

Solomoriah wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:50 am daryen... never heard of the mindset of your point #1. Bizarre.

pirate... have you read my blog post on the subject?
Nope but I just did...
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Re: Thoughts on Magic Users

Post Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:05 am

daryen wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:35 am Here is where I see the dissonance coming from. On "OSR think" I see two big trends that keep coming up:

1) You aren't supposed to do a "one-fight a day" dungeon. That is viewed as munchkin and ridiculous. If you go into a dungeon and fight a band of goblins, kill them all, then leave, then the GM is *supposed* to replace them with something else because the players were negligent and didn't pursue on. Players are supposed to go in and clean out the dungeon in one go. If they don't, then the dungeon repopulates and they will never clean it out. This is the "correct" way to run a dungeon.

2) First level characters are supposed to be weak and in constant danger of dying. Gotta start out on the bottom rung and all of that. If you can't survive on your four hit points, you're doing it wrong. Also, you *must* start at first level or you are doing it all wrong. The initial struggle is the point and without starting at first level you are not getting the full experience.

These two "OSR think" points don't fit together. This also means that going into a dungeon as a first level character is moronic. A first level character shouldn't ever go into a dungeon. Instead, they should go find a nest of rats or a nearby tribe of goblins and experience point harvest until they can start to level up. Do the one-fight a day experience grind until you get to at least third level before even thinking of going into an actual dungeon. Or, if you have to go into a dungeon, go find the easiest fight possible, kill them, then run away. You can always come back and fight their replacements over and over until you get enough experience points to level up and try for the second room. Just know that you are going to fight that first level encounter over and over and over.

Further dissonance comes in with the idea that, playing first (and probably second) level is really just an experience point grind mission to gain enough experience points to get to a level that can actually last for more than one battle. And even then, getting to third level might not be enough. I always thought that artificial grind missions were a more modern invention, and they just don't seem to fit into the style of OSR. It seems like way too "gamist" of an approach for what OSR is "supposed to be".

Oh, yeah, and the thing that makes first level even worse is that you have no healing magic. That means healing your three points of damage is going to take a while, and your fighter's wounds are gonna keep you out of action for a month. Which really insures that the monster you killed in that one battle will be guaranteed to be replaced, and you will have to fight that battle all over again.
I mean not to offend you or anything, but are you not talking about Dungeons and Dragons or something a little more "new school" when you talk about point 1? If you're like me you've probably come from a newer Era of Dnd and pathfinder and Stars without number etc etc. But Basic Fantasy is ancient (that's supposed to be a compliment, forgive my Charisma score) and simple. It follows the old school style. I believe people get mixed up with what Basic Fantasy is supposed to be like and what most role playing games implement.
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Solomoriah
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Re: Thoughts on Magic Users

Post Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:16 am

Younger people do. The earliest adopters of BFRPG were old guys, who knew how the game was supposed to work from direct experience.
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Dimirag
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Re: Thoughts on Magic Users

Post Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:34 am

It seems some people (mostly newcomers) seen Basic Fantasy as d20 made old school, but with a strong d20 mind, while the games is the other way around, Basic era gamestyle with some d20 touches (either for mechanical, personal or copyright motives).
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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Rosisha
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Re: Thoughts on Magic Users

Post Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:28 am

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