Powercreep

General topics, including off-topic discussion, goes here.
User avatar
cbarchuk
Posts: 206
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 7:30 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Powercreep

Post by cbarchuk »

I recently played in a session of Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth using BF. What struck me in a weird way was how powerful in particular 2 of the characters in our group were. They consisted of a Druid and Ranger using the supplemental rules. Now our party were all level 7 with modest equipment including a few +1 and +2 basic weapons here and there. The ranger, with a +2 Long Bow, had a +12 to hit along with 3/2 attacks. This guy couldn't miss to save his life. And then the druid was regularly shape changing into a Cave Bear. Wow is all I can say. Now BF is more or less based on BX right? Now before this game I had been playing quite a bit of OSE. The power increase was quite surprising to me. Is is just that these two classes aren't core classes and just are naturally more powerful Anyways just curious as our characters felt more like super heroes but I can't quite figure out why. Is there a powercreep compared to BX/OSE or S&W?
User avatar
Dimirag
Posts: 3613
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:24 pm
Location: Buenos Aires (C.A.B.A.), Argentina
Contact:

Re: Powercreep

Post by Dimirag »

The ranger has:
+5 base attack bonus (level 7)
+2 bow ability
+2 magic bow
+3 Dex right?
Final +11 to +10 based on ranged with 3/2 attacks.

Rangers are expert bowmen and the character has topnotch accuracy due to its 18 Dex....
I think that the ranger kind of assumes you are giving fighters weapon specialization, a 7th Lvl Fighter specialized on one weapon would be closer to the ranger:
+5 base attack bonus (level 7)
+2 weapon specialization
+0 to +3 Str
+X magic weapon
From +7 to +10 depending on Str, w/out counting magical weapons.

As for the Druid, he can do it no more than twice per day, yes, for 7 hours per spell use, but can't communicate nor cast spell, use magical weapons (it can't affect some monsters), he's basically the brute tank of the group, useful or not depending on place and situation.
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
Drawing portfolio: https://www.instagram.com/m.serena_dimirag/
User avatar
cbarchuk
Posts: 206
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 7:30 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Powercreep

Post by cbarchuk »

Dimirag wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:37 pm The ranger has:
+5 base attack bonus (level 7)
+2 bow ability
+2 magic bow
+3 Dex right?
Final +11 to +10 based on ranged with 3/2 attacks.

Rangers are expert bowmen and the character has topnotch accuracy due to its 18 Dex....
I think that the ranger kind of assumes you are giving fighters weapon specialization, a 7th Lvl Fighter specialized on one weapon would be closer to the ranger:
+5 base attack bonus (level 7)
+2 weapon specialization
+0 to +3 Str
+X magic weapon
From +7 to +10 depending on Str, w/out counting magical weapons.

As for the Druid, he can do it no more than twice per day, yes, for 7 hours per spell use, but can't communicate nor cast spell, use magical weapons (it can't affect some monsters), he's basically the brute tank of the group, useful or not depending on place and situation.
Yea a +11 but with an added +1 at close range for a +12. I dunno I guess that seem like a lot to me. And the Druid bear hugging foes left and right was a sight to behold. Yea like I said it seemed pretty crazy.
User avatar
cbarchuk
Posts: 206
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 7:30 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Powercreep

Post by cbarchuk »

Let me ask you this is the Ranger too powerful if we're not using the weapon specialization options? He was the only one with multiple attacks as we were only using the core rules.
User avatar
Solomoriah
Site Admin
Posts: 12460
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:15 pm
Location: LaBelle, Missouri
Contact:

Re: Powercreep

Post by Solomoriah »

Yes, the Ranger is probably too powerful if you aren't using Combat Options. The 1E Ranger was balanced against a Fighter with larger hit dice, and there were still balance issues.
My personal site: www.gonnerman.org
User avatar
cbarchuk
Posts: 206
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 7:30 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Powercreep

Post by cbarchuk »

Solomoriah wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:33 am Yes, the Ranger is probably too powerful if you aren't using Combat Options. The 1E Ranger was balanced against a Fighter with larger hit dice, and there were still balance issues.
I totally forgot about the 1e Ranger. Good point. But in 0D&D and 1e Bows had 2 attacks per round anyways. That's basically the same thing in this case. But they typically couldn't be fire into melee. Now if the Ranger misses then I believe the rules state that the DM might want to roll and see if one of the other heroes is hit instead? I may ask the DM for group about adding in weapon specialization though I get the feeling he thinks it's too powerful.
User avatar
Solomoriah
Site Admin
Posts: 12460
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:15 pm
Location: LaBelle, Missouri
Contact:

Re: Powercreep

Post by Solomoriah »

cbarchuk wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:53 amBut in 0D&D and 1e Bows had 2 attacks per round anyways. That's basically the same thing in this case.
Not in OD&D. Not in the core books anyway. But yes, in 1E they did get multiple attacks per round.
cbarchuk wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:53 amBut they typically couldn't be fire into melee. Now if the Ranger misses then I believe the rules state that the DM might want to roll and see if one of the other heroes is hit instead?
There's no "might" to it, you really must do it if you don't want player characters doing that all the time.
My personal site: www.gonnerman.org
User avatar
cbarchuk
Posts: 206
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 7:30 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Powercreep

Post by cbarchuk »

Not in OD&D. Not in the core books anyway. But yes, in 1E they did get multiple attacks per round.
Okay I haven't looked at the original books in a while but in S&W core and complete bows get 2 attacks. I just assumed S&W was accurately based on the original LBBs.
User avatar
Tazer_The_Yoot
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:24 pm

Re: Powercreep

Post by Tazer_The_Yoot »

cbarchuk wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:44 am
Not in OD&D. Not in the core books anyway. But yes, in 1E they did get multiple attacks per round.
Okay I haven't looked at the original books in a while but in S&W core and complete bows get 2 attacks. I just assumed S&W was accurately based on the original LBBs.
Men & Magic references Chainmail so perhaps that's a holdover from Chainmail, but it also uses an "alternate combat system" that became pretty much the core of the system that's used today. In Men & Magic Elves are unique because they can move, fire a missile weapon, then move again. "Split fire". They can do this only on foot, not on horseback, and no other character but the Elf can do this, but note that this ability confers the Elf only one attack, not multiple ones. Greyhawk implies that Men sometimes can have 2 attacks when using the Alternative (now standard) combat system when using certain weapon types but is vague as to what those types are. Perhaps the multiple attacks is from the Strategic Review article where the Ranger appears? I don't have access to that.
User avatar
Solomoriah
Site Admin
Posts: 12460
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:15 pm
Location: LaBelle, Missouri
Contact:

Re: Powercreep

Post by Solomoriah »

I guess I should clarify, the alternate combat system (which is the default from 1E on) did not allow multiple attacks. Not explicitly, anyway.
My personal site: www.gonnerman.org
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 35 guests