Magic-Users and Darts/Slings

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therealt
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Magic-Users and Darts/Slings

Post by therealt »

Are magic-users limited to dagger and staff in BFRPG? No darts or slings?

Thanks!
Rosisha
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Re: Magic-Users and Darts/Slings

Post by Rosisha »

Actually just dagger and walking staff/cudgel per the rules as written.

I could understand a DM allowing more weapon choices - the quarterstaff is an obvious one and kind of weird it was left out - the wizard and his staff is a classic of fantasy literature.

In fairness, using slings is incredibly difficult - it requires extensive and continuous practice. I'm not sure how much of this is hype and how much is truth, but writings from the ancient Greek period state that their most famous slingers started as children, and wouldn't be allowed to eat unless they were able to hunt the food with their slings.
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therealt
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Re: Magic-Users and Darts/Slings

Post by therealt »

Copy that. I see the statement I missed previously on page 8: "The only weapons they become proficient with are the dagger and the walking staff (or cudgel)." So really the difference is 1d4 vs 1d6.

I have no doubt learning to use a sling is difficult. Learning to throw a knife accurately/consistently is no small feat either. I know that from personal experience (or maybe I was just bad at it).

Thanks for the info! Cudgel it is.
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Dimirag
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Re: Magic-Users and Darts/Slings

Post by Dimirag »

Rosisha wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:19 am I could understand a DM allowing more weapon choices - the quarterstaff is an obvious one and kind of weird it was left out - the wizard and his staff is a classic of fantasy literature.
I think its not that it was left out, it was not part of the targeted game (I recall they could only use a dagger, so the walking staff was added, which is less conspicuous and easier to wield than a full staff)

Both Darts and Slings are low damage, so you can let a MU use them w/out problems.
Compare to throwing daggers darts are less damaging but cheaper and lighter.
Compare to throwing daggers slings have better range, are cheaper, and lighter, but require 2 hand to be used.
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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Rosisha
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Re: Magic-Users and Darts/Slings

Post by Rosisha »

You're welcome!

Yes, it's one of the reasons I liked 2nd Ed weapon proficiency slots. I think that makes a lot of sense, because a LOT of weapons people say are easy to use are not actually easy to use. Spears are shockingly hard to use too - they LOOK easy (and I think are simple weapons in 3e or 5th or something) but they are difficult to use properly, difficult to control, difficult to train on and insanely hard to wield in battle. Yet, they are fundamentally one of the most powerful weapons that you can deploy (which is why they are so common in history). No version of this game is super accurate from a weapon perspective. :D
Rosisha
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Re: Magic-Users and Darts/Slings

Post by Rosisha »

Dimirag wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:50 pm
Rosisha wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:19 am I could understand a DM allowing more weapon choices - the quarterstaff is an obvious one and kind of weird it was left out - the wizard and his staff is a classic of fantasy literature.
I think its not that it was left out, it was not part of the targeted game (I recall they could only use a dagger, so the walking staff was added, which is less conspicuous and easier to wield than a full staff)

Both Darts and Slings are low damage, so you can let a MU use them w/out problems.
Compare to throwing daggers darts are less damaging but cheaper and lighter.
Compare to throwing daggers slings have better range, are cheaper, and lighter, but require 2 hand to be used.
Two things:
1. I totally understand the targeted game - I was commenting in general on the original design choice. Though that's not clear so I apologize.

2. My last point I commented on the lack of realism. Your point is spot on for sling/dart damage and MU use from a game design perspective. That said, however, a sling hits with the power of a 45 handgun with a hell of a lot longer range. There are some awesome videos on YouTube you can find about what kind of damage a sling can do. I can't remember which version of the game did this, but there is a version where every weapon does the same damage die. I think that makes the most sense. A sling, when used by a proficient user is just as dangerous as a sword or axe and will kill you just as dead. But I know I'm being a crotchety old bastard :D and you're 100% right for the game as it is - and that the game isn't as I feel it should be :D
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CptClyde
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Re: Magic-Users and Darts/Slings

Post by CptClyde »

Rosisha wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:19 am the quarterstaff is an obvious one and kind of weird it was left out - the wizard and his staff is a classic of fantasy literature.
I actually thought this was a good system choice since I assumed the proper use of a quarter staff was to use like a "bo-staff" in two hands making it amazing to parry with and effectively a double weapon for striking. And I thought i DOES make sense that a magic user couldn't fight that way.
The magic user is more into just using staff (a less hardy stick) for walking mostly. I've never pictured a wizard getting into a proper fighting stance with a bo-staff really and certainly shouldnt' be able to use it as effectively as a fighter hence the 1d6 for a "proper" quarter staff and only 1d4 for the walking staff of a wizard.
That's just how my brain made sense of it anyhow.
Rosisha
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Re: Magic-Users and Darts/Slings

Post by Rosisha »

That's fair. When I was a kid I read this great book where unarmed academic types were sent out into the wider world with iron shod staffs for defense. Big thick ones that could deflect an axe and kill someone. So for me, I see a wizard as wanting the staff FOR those features - they can't wear armor or use shields so they need the better parry capabilities of the quarterstaff to defend themselves effectively - and wizardly training would involve that.
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billiambabble
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Re: Magic-Users and Darts/Slings

Post by billiambabble »

If I was DMing Basic Fantasy right at this moment, I would house-rule that no matter what mundane weapon a Magic User tries to attack or defend with I would rule that they can never do more than 1d4 damage. This allows for the aesthetic of wizards carrying and waving swords and maybe bopping monster with a staff or a heavy spellbook. :) I think I was assuming that MUs could throw daggers or darts (maybe that's from AD&D?) - it's the sort of sneaky thing they do whilst hiding behind curtains, but this is clearly not the case in the normal rules here. :shock: The class attack bonus compensates for reading too many books and not practicing combat though. I'm behind on reading up on weapon proficiencies. When we talk about weapons being compared to handguns or being deadly we must remember that to a kobold targeted by a sling is a deadly situation for the kobold. Long bow arrows having higher damage might be argued that against a suit of armour covering most of the body an arrow strike is possibly more likely to pierce and kill then a sling bullet (looking at combat in very generalised and comparative terms here). But yup, I agree, an academic suddenly being put amongst some professional slingers might be a poor shot indeed.
However, I worry that at low level if the MU casts their only spells early on in the adventure (if you're not using 0-level spells) that they can't contribute to the general fight at all. A missile weapon of sorts makes sense for an unarmoured soul who prefers to operate at a distance, otherwise they just become a sort of vulnerable tourist (in a combat heavy game).
Rosisha
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Re: Magic-Users and Darts/Slings

Post by Rosisha »

I don't have a lot of experience playing magic users (I really should change that), but I would imagine there are ways to help after expanding your spell slot: 1) holding the torch or lantern, 2) lighting oil to throw it at enemies, 3) using various tools to help figure out the dungeon or get past obstacles or whatever... A magic user with a bag of caltrops is probably a great rear guard.
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