I Find Dungeon Exploration Movement Rates To Be A Tad Silly.

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rudgar
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Re: I Find Dungeon Exploration Movement Rates To Be A Tad Silly.

Post by rudgar »

Psionic-Tribute wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:16 pm also it kind of just sucks and wasn't really Gary's best...
I find it to be really great, one of my favorites, but it certainly isn't for everyone. It's all subjective.

This is a tangent, but what do you think is Gary's best module?
rudgar
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Re: I Find Dungeon Exploration Movement Rates To Be A Tad Silly.

Post by rudgar »

Psionic-Tribute wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:51 am more so when moving through areas you've already explored or cleared out.
I definitely don't use the base movement when moving through areas you've already explored or cleared out. I don't think you're supposed to.
Psionic-Tribute wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:20 pm And if the players want to be that careful and move that slow, sure, but I just don't think that should be the assumed mode of movement.
According to the rulebook:
"Normal movement per turn is 3 times the movement rate per round...this rate of movement includes such things as drawing maps, watching out for traps and monsters (though they may still surprise the party), etc. "

It's the default (normal), but if the players don't need to map (for example, just exploring a small house), then you may decide to track time based on actions rather than on movement, which is what I tend to do.

If the dungeon is extremely very big and vast (I think you mentioned that Mines of Moria), and they are trudging through without mapping, and they are assuming that the location is generally empty, etc....then it may make sense to use overland travel rates, which is measured in miles per day.

So, you're underground, but you're treating movement as if it's Wilderness exploration, and presumably checking for encounters, etc. just as often in wilderness exploration.

I think that's probably the best solution for what you want.

Smaller dungeons, such as the ones in Morgansfort, I would tend to agree with the rules (it's not just movement - it's pausing, looking around the corner, waiting for the distance footsteps to fade away, all flavor text that the DM can add).

But - in OSR, you can change anything to your liking. So, change it if you want.
Psionic-Tribute
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Re: I Find Dungeon Exploration Movement Rates To Be A Tad Silly.

Post by Psionic-Tribute »

rudgar wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:30 pm If the dungeon is extremely very big and vast (I think you mentioned that Mines of Moria), and they are trudging through without mapping, and they are assuming that the location is generally empty, etc....then it may make sense to use overland travel rates, which is measured in miles per day.

So, you're underground, but you're treating movement as if it's Wilderness exploration, and presumably checking for encounters, etc. just as often in wilderness exploration.

I think that's probably the best solution for what you want.

Smaller dungeons, such as the ones in Morgansfort, I would tend to agree with the rules (it's not just movement - it's pausing, looking around the corner, waiting for the distance footsteps to fade away, all flavor text that the DM can add).

But - in OSR, you can change anything to your liking. So, change it if you want.
Well I did, and they seem to work fine, my "problem" ultimately is the movement rate in the baseline rules assumes a lot of stuff the players are doing instead of the players telling me what they are actually doing, if I describe a corner, they tell me they peak around then I tell them what they see, if they don't I'll blindside them if I desire. they don't want to be lost, they either actually draw a map ( they don't have the memory of a goldfish, a moderate 10 room dungeon doesn't need a map, at least their characters don't) or they are leaving a pebbles, beads, crumbs, or yarn to follow back.

so yeah I did change the rules, I was just trying to see if there was a reason why I shouldn't have.

and wilderness travel rules work for wilderness travel,
rudgar
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Re: I Find Dungeon Exploration Movement Rates To Be A Tad Silly.

Post by rudgar »

Psionic-Tribute wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:29 pm Well I did, and they seem to work fine, my "problem" ultimately is the movement rate in the baseline rules assumes a lot of stuff the players are doing instead of the players telling me what they are actually doing, if I describe a corner, they tell me they peak around then I tell them what they see, if they don't I'll blindside them if I desire. they don't want to be lost, they either actually draw a map ( they don't have the memory of a goldfish, a moderate 10 room dungeon doesn't need a map, at least their characters don't) or they are leaving a pebbles, beads, crumbs, or yarn to follow back.
They *should* tell you some of those things, such as peering around the corner, etc, and it's ok to blindside them.

What I mean is the the ten minute turns allows for this, so you don't need to say "ok, let's add one minute for carefully peering around the corner and listening." The rules are meant to be simple, "basic."

Some things maybe don't need to be said again and again - if they always map new locations, for example.

It even takes into account that someone might need to use the restroom, tie their shoes, rest and catch their breath for a minute, or have the "what should we do next" conversation with the party.

My main point: Imho, don't think of it as speed per ten minutes, but how far can they go in a day, including all the careful things that they do.

If some turns should realistically take 2 minutes, but others may take 20 minutes, I think the idea is that it averages out to ten minutes in the end.
Psionic-Tribute wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:29 pm and wilderness travel rules work for wilderness travel,
If the underground is big enough that entire cities can be located there, can that not be like overland travel?
Psionic-Tribute wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:29 pm so yeah I did change the rules, I was just trying to see if there was a reason why I shouldn't have.
No reason you shouldn't.

I'm just explaining my perspective, but have fun your way!
Psionic-Tribute
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Re: I Find Dungeon Exploration Movement Rates To Be A Tad Silly.

Post by Psionic-Tribute »

rudgar wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:12 pm

What I mean is the the ten minute turns allows for this, so you don't need to say "ok, let's add one minute for carefully peering around the corner and listening." The rules are meant to be simple, "basic."

I want to highlight this part about your comment, cause I think overall you make some fair stuff, but this is sort of the crux of why I do it the way I do, cause it adds a certain depth without adding much if any complexity when you keep track of things on a per 1 to 2 minute basis, player actions become very concrete and very tactile. it gives them a lot of sub control over stuff cause they know what roughly actions they can fit in that time period. I combo this with a house rule that thieves can open almost any lock (baring magical ones) or disarm nearly any trap so long as they are willing to spend time to do it, a exploration turn or two.

this means they exchange time as if it was a resource cause they know every so many turns I'm rolling for encounters, traps, torches, or any manner of other things. they pay in risk for reward directly. and something about framing it as a minute by minute series of actions adds a certain urgency and tension not present in a protracted dungeon crawl.

bigger dungeons I go up to 10 minute turns, but I allow players to cover more ground and get more done in a turn unless they are purposefully being careful, but those tend to be city crawls or Mines or Moira type affairs where their in sprawling places, but not underdark huge where a hex map is needed.
Seven
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Re: I Find Dungeon Exploration Movement Rates To Be A Tad Silly.

Post by Seven »

The problem with housekeeping how long it takes for the players to do their actions is that a lot of it overlap, often partially. If you want to keep an excel spreadsheet of what everyone is doing, it's fine, but that doesn't scale with a larger group in which most of the time is wasted talking.
Psionic-Tribute
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Re: I Find Dungeon Exploration Movement Rates To Be A Tad Silly.

Post by Psionic-Tribute »

it's like "free actions" there isn't a hard rule it so much as a "know it when you see it kind of deal" like can you reasonably do this action in a minute? then that's an turn. if feels reasonable enough, certainly not worth keeping a spread sheet.
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Re: I Find Dungeon Exploration Movement Rates To Be A Tad Silly.

Post by Solomoriah »

Try running a bunch of real people through a series of tasks that, logically, should take a short period of time. I guarantee you they will take more time at it than you expect. An amazing amount of time is wasted/consumed in gossip, arguing about courses of action, etc.

The rules are written to provide a simple basis for figuring out things like how long torches, potions, and spells last, not modelling precisely how long things take. It's abstract, and it's meant to be. Also remember, the adventurers do not have watches, cell phones, or other reliable ways of telling time, and they are in an environment where natural means of doing so are generally unavailable.

It's abstract for a reason. Change it in your game if you wish, but don't call it silly. It serves a purpose the way it is.
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FakeHealer
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Re: I Find Dungeon Exploration Movement Rates To Be A Tad Silly.

Post by FakeHealer »

Solomoriah wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:38 am Try running a bunch of real people through a series of tasks that, logically, should take a short period of time. I guarantee you they will take more time at it than you expect. An amazing amount of time is wasted/consumed in gossip, arguing about courses of action, etc.

The rules are written to provide a simple basis for figuring out things like how long torches, potions, and spells last, not modelling precisely how long things take. It's abstract, and it's meant to be. Also remember, the adventurers do not have watches, cell phones, or other reliable ways of telling time, and they are in an environment where natural means of doing so are generally unavailable.

It's abstract for a reason. Change it in your game if you wish, but don't call it silly. It serves a purpose the way it is.
Agreed. I also like to point out that passing through an area and possibly uncovering a cleverly hidden secret door or noticing an almond sized gemstone in a debris strewn area...walking through there while an entire populace wants to find me, eat me, tortuously sacrifice me to the beast-god, etc...I feel like walking slowly, trying to keep quiet with the Tin-can knight, spotting traps and secret doors, and listening for sounds of adversary awareness can and should probably take an almost ridiculous amount of time to people outside looking in.
It is like a police investigation, even just a car accident investigation...sometimes it just seems to take 5x as much time as it should.
Psionic-Tribute
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Re: I Find Dungeon Exploration Movement Rates To Be A Tad Silly.

Post by Psionic-Tribute »

Solomoriah wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:38 am It's abstract for a reason. Change it in your game if you wish, but don't call it silly. It serves a purpose the way it is.
Yes time is abstract and often is wasted on lots of things, but my speech and opinions are not compelled, I think it's a tad silly to only move 6 feet a minute. I understand why you designed it that way, but I'm not beholden, and with all due respect I still think it's a tad silly.
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