Curse of the Lost Spells

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Solomoriah
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Curse of the Lost Spells

Post Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:08 pm

One of the things that sometimes troubles me is the fact that very few 1st level Clerical spells ever get used... because, of course, the Cleric has loaded up on Cure Light Wounds. The same applies in slightly lesser measure to the 4th level spells (where the Cleric gets Cure Serious Wounds).

I'm considering an optional rule (for a supplement, not the Core) which would remove both spells. Instead, the Cleric would be allowed to Lay On Hands starting at 2nd level, healing a total of up to 6 points per level (past first) per day. The choice of 6 points isn't purely arbitrary... it makes the Cleric's healing capacity a fair model for the current method. I've attached a handy chart; the blue boxes track the average performance of the standard Cleric's healing spells (not counting Heal, which I propose leaving as is), while the diamonds show the healing amounts offered by this method.

Thoughts?
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SmootRK
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Re: Curse of the Lost Spells

Post Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:35 pm

Another way to deal with that situation is to allow Clerics to spontaneously convert their 1st level spells into Cure spells (and I guess 4th levels to the equivalent)... but your method seems rather innovative otherwise.

Another thing to think on is that Clerics can spontaneously produce whatever spell they need, as they need it... basically they beseech their deity for the desired effect whenever. (Spontaneous Caster) This will vary spell usage a lot as well because they need not 'prepare' spells ahead of time... but this is an innovation that would likely change the game dynamic in unpredictable ways.

I can see where this can be tweaked in certain ways too...
for instance, the Deity of Healing/Renewal/Growth/etc. might get additional points.

I can see where you would need to clarify certain things:
minimum "points" used per application of Lay Hands? perhaps 2 or 3 points minimum per application. Otherwise, can they simply do 1 point a multitude of times... basically can they stop "death's door" rules by applying 1 point. -- I just see the need for some clarifications here.

Then, what about the "reversed" Harm sort of applications?

And then, what might fill that void in the Cleric's list? Perhaps another healing variant might be introduced..."Rest" where the healing rate (from natural healing) is doubled, which has the benefit that it need not be cast over and over, and it takes place during a rest cycle - one cannot take multiple "Rest". I would also make such an alternate spell affect 1 creature per level (but can only be cast once per day).

I have a similar conundrum for getting players to expand their spell choices... the same with MU types. I address this to an extent by the introduction of the "Spell Channeling Items" (which the idea is that the item allows one or more spells be produced in exchange for "burning off a memorized spell").

Just random thoughts as I contemplate what your idea deals with. I think it has merits that are likely an improvement over the standard model... clerics always need a little tweaking.
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Solomoriah
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Re: Curse of the Lost Spells

Post Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:44 pm

SmootRK wrote:Another way to deal with that situation is to allow Clerics to spontaneously convert their 1st level spells into Cure spells (and I guess 4th levels to the equivalent)... but your method seems rather innovative otherwise.
Have done that, didn't like the results, and really didn't see much more use of 1st level spells. In fact, it didn't help at all... they held back using any 1st level spell in case they might need a Cure later.
SmootRK wrote:Another thing to think on is that Clerics can spontaneously produce whatever spell they need, as they need it... basically they beseech their deity for the desired effect whenever. (Spontaneous Caster) This will vary spell usage a lot as well because they need not 'prepare' spells ahead of time... but this is an innovation that would likely change the game dynamic in unpredictable ways.
Indeed.
SmootRK wrote:I can see where you would need to clarify certain things: minimum "points" used per application of Lay Hands? perhaps 2 or 3 points minimum per application. Otherwise, can they simply do 1 point a multitude of times... basically can they stop "death's door" rules by applying 1 point. -- I just see the need for some clarifications here.
I don't really see the problem here.
SmootRK wrote:Then, what about the "reversed" Harm sort of applications?
I doubt this is much of a problem. PC Clerics don't do this all that often, and frankly neither to NPCs in my campaign.
SmootRK wrote:And then, what might fill that void in the Cleric's list? Perhaps another healing variant might be introduced..."Rest" where the healing rate (from natural healing) is doubled, which has the benefit that it need not be cast over and over, and it takes place during a rest cycle - one cannot take multiple "Rest". I would also make such an alternate spell affect 1 creature per level (but can only be cast once per day).
I don't like that one at all, actually. For test purposes, the "void" doesn't need filling anyway.
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Re: Curse of the Lost Spells

Post Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:26 pm

Solomoriah wrote:I don't like that one at all, actually. For test purposes, the "void" doesn't need filling anyway.....Among other things brought up.
Of course... all just little issues that popped into my mind as I reflected upon what you propose.

I think giving a linear (by level) healing amount is a great idea overall, eliminating that process (healing) from spell usage overall --- obvious effect being that Clerics will have no choice but to look into other such spell choices. All good in my mind.

That said, and on further reflection, I think a new spell that increases the healing rate (from natural healing) IS A Good Idea :P ... but that is rather another idea from what you are talking about here.

EDIT: and rather that blather on about things only tangentially related to what Solo is sharing, I started a thread about First Aid - and perhaps other stuff with the goal of Freeing the Cleric (from exclusive healing duties) to allow more variable spell choices.
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Re: Curse of the Lost Spells

Post Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:52 pm

As a DM you could introduce more healing potions into your games and/or easily accessible higher level clerics in towns. You could also include more minor healing abilities into other classes like with scouts, rangers, etc. If the cleric didn't have to serve as the medicine cabinet for the party they might use some of the other spells more often.
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Re: Curse of the Lost Spells

Post Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:35 pm

Hywaywolf wrote:As a DM you could introduce more healing potions into your games and/or easily accessible higher level clerics in towns. You could also include more minor healing abilities into other classes like with scouts, rangers, etc. If the cleric didn't have to serve as the medicine cabinet for the party they might use some of the other spells more often.
Wouldn't work. Players will find a way to use all available healing; no matter how many healing potions they get, the party cleric will end up front-loading Cure Light Wounds.
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Re: Curse of the Lost Spells

Post Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:44 pm

I'm having this play tested in my play by post games.

My description on this ability for the play test.

Healing Hands : This is a divine power for clerics. Their deity grants them this ability to heal through prayer while laying their hands on the afflicted area. It heals 1d4+WIS Bonus points of damage and is usable twice per day till 5th level then it is usable three times a day. At tenth level the power increases to 1d6+WIS Bonus that is usable three times a day and at 15th level it becomes usable four times per day.

So far it works. The cleric doesn't stock up on that many cure wound spells. In the beginning most low level groups need healed a lot and as the group grow stronger (levels up) that starts falling to the wayside. IF you notice the best it goes to in my description ruling is 1d6+wis bonus which would be the max of +3 so a 4 - 9 points of healing keeps characters alive but not much else and then the max amount of times is 4 times.
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Re: Curse of the Lost Spells

Post Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:46 pm

Ur. I would definitely remove the spells if I added the lay-on-hands power.
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Re: Curse of the Lost Spells

Post Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:43 am

Metroknight wrote:Healing Hands : This is a divine power for clerics. Their deity grants them this ability to heal through prayer while laying their hands on the afflicted area. It heals 1d4+WIS Bonus points of damage and is usable twice per day till 5th level then it is usable three times a day. At tenth level the power increases to 1d6+WIS Bonus that is usable three times a day and at 15th level it becomes usable four times per day.
Not bad. I'd mix this with Sol's idea. Cut CLW (and others) out completely. Usable once per day for each level of the cleric (i.e. a 5th level cleric can use it 5 times per day). I would just go with 1d6+1 per usage rather than including a WIS bonus because I feel like it puts too much emphasis on having higher stats.

I don't think it would ever get so over-powered that it breaks the game.
Of course...when I'm a cleric...my CLW are for me. I pretty rarely use them on my allies (unless they donate to my faith...by putting gold in my pocket :))
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Re: Curse of the Lost Spells

Post Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:31 pm

Data points:
IMC, I use at will spells (in place of spell points), conversion of higher level spells to a CLW, "first aid" (which restores 1-3 hits/usable only by clerics) immediately after every encounter AND have adapted many healing herbs from Rolemaster of all things.

Doesn't break my game. I just get to beat up my players more, which is what I want (and is what my players secretly want as well). And: characters still die.
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