Why does Sleep have a Saving Throw?

[Urieal]

Why does Sleep have a Saving Throw?

Not being critical, just genuinely curious.

[SmootRK]

It is modeled after the B/X version... no other reason than to match up to that edition. Certainly, one could easily houserule that spell to match other edition versions of the spell where there is no save (according to HD).

[Urieal]

Moldvay Basic doesn't allow a Save. Nor does Holmes, Mentzer, OD&D, AD&D, or 2E AD&D.

Unless I am reading my Moldvay wrong .

[SmootRK]

Moldvay Basic doesn't allow a Save. Nor does Holmes, Mentzer, OD&D, AD&D, or 2E AD&D.

Unless I am reading my Moldvay wrong .

Hmmm. I did not bother to do any cross-referencing, just assumed it was one of those instances. Wait a bit for Solomoriah to respond directly. Perhaps it was a conscious decision to change. Then again, it just might be an instance where there was a snafu while getting the spell covered.

[Hywaywolf]

its because this version doesn't have a limit on how many can be affected other than 3rd level or lower and how many you can squeeze into the area of effect. If you hit a mob of 100 within a 30' radius of the spell its possible to put them all to sleep or known of them.

[Urieal]

I see. He basically made it the same as the D&D 3.x Sleep spell, probably a conscious decision to better adhere to the OGL. After some emails with him earlier this month, I can completely understand why he would follow that line.

The reason it came up is because I am playing in a BFRPG game and sleep was cast. Saving Throws were mentioned and I assumed that since it was based off Moldvay, that it didn't have a Save. It just threw me off a bit, that's all.

[Solomoriah]

The description of the spell was inherited from the SRD; at some point, someone asked this same question, and I considered changing it to match earlier games. However, I have a strong distaste for spells that always work (no saving throw); only Magic Missile works that way in the current Core, as far as I can remember, and that's because it would have needed a lot of work to make it balance properly with a saving throw added.

[Dimirag]

If you want to dispense from the st you can use something similar to the hd determination for turning undeads. Maybe using 1d4-1 and scalin up at some levels?

[Urieal]

Oh, most certainly. I could just run it identical to how Moldvay wrote it. Not a problem. I was just curious, that's all. It took me by surprise when the DM started calling for Saving Throws for a sleep spell.

There's a discussion about it going on over on Dragonsfoot in the Classic forum. Different strokes and all, it's all good with me either way...whatever the DM prefers.

[Hywaywolf]

personally, i don't want to be attacked by any spell that i don't have a chance to defeat or minimize the effects.