No limits Multiclass

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ArtemisEntreri
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No limits Multiclass

Post Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:17 pm

Hey!
I'm using BF (a bit hybrid with LL) for a campaign and I'm thinkin' about the future.

I'm going to allow some extra classes but I mostly operate through reskin and variants...

What I'd like to do, is to allow any multiclassing for the 4 main classes, with no racial limits.
No Magic Users/Cleric just because I already have a signature class which operates in the middle...

I know the book only allows it for elves... but (outside personal tastes), i don't see any reason not to allow it.

What are your takes about this? Have you allowed "free" multiclass? If not, why?

Some direct experiences?

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SmootRK
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Re: No limits Multiclass

Post Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:50 pm

I have had no real issues with completely removing race/class limits. There is the occasional rule oddity to consider (Dwarf magic resistance/saves against them being Magic Users). I have mentioned this in various threads where race and class are discussed. I utilize other options as well... other sub-classes or alternates, quasi-classes which are surprising good at creating some very unique character types, and also alternate races.

Now, even though I allow odd or non-standard race/class pairing, I do utilize the typical racial stereotypes or cultural norms we traditionally expect. This falls into the role-play area more so than game mechanics. For instance a Dwarf Wizard would likely be an outcast of dwarven society, shunned, or even hostility towards him. Likewise, an Orc Paladin (I use the Holy quasi-class to get such characters) would not be very welcome in most places... but the characters are possible.

So, combo-classes are likewise freely allowed for the most part. This said, there are combo-class arrangements that simply do not work... for instance the Fighter/Thief. Pure math/statistics show that equivalent XP values for F/T is a worse fighter than the equivalent pure Thief. Other combo-classes such as Cleric/Fighter have the same problem. This is the reason one does not see some other obvious pairings.

Others who have done some of this xp vs. xp comparisons can likely share some insight on this as well.

Getting around the poor pairings requires some creative thought, and is one of the reasons that I got started with the quasi-class mechanism (though not entirely the reason why). Having sub-classes and quasi-classes available allows me to have mechanisms that the player can use to get closer to certain archetypes than just the core 4 classes (as written) can achieve.

Anyway, hope that gives a little extra insight. Bear in mind, I am not necessarily advocating a free for all system. My advice mirrors many others around here in that sticking to rules as written as closely as possible is best for learning and playing, and that new options ought to be considered very carefully before implementation. You might find that the options you think are so important really aren't needed in real play.
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Solomoriah
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Re: No limits Multiclass

Post Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:40 pm

Smoot has pointed out all the significant bits, but I'll expand a little on them.

A Gnome (an optional race) can become a Magic-User, but also does not have the magic resistance of the Dwarf despite being similar otherwise. This was intentional.

The Fighter/Thief truly does not work; statistically, XP for XP, a Fighter/Thief is worse in combat than a straight Thief, whereas the combo should result in better fighting ability.

I've never liked the Magic-User/Cleric combo, but you say you already have your own thing there. It just doesn't seem reasonable that one person could be both self-important enough to do arcane magic (where your power comes directly from your own skills) and selfless enough to do divine magic at the same time.

This leaves the Cleric/Thief. I've never seen a good example of this combo, not in any myth or work of fiction.

The class combos officially supported in the game rules are those that make sense to me logically and also work statistically. The racial limitations as to which classes are allowed are based on my idea of those races... ideas that are founded in the classic game I was mimicking in the first place.

I am in no way saying that you should not do what you want in your own game... rather, I'm just explaining why things work as they do in mine.
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Caelestis
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Re: No limits Multiclass

Post Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:42 am

Just reading through and catching up. I was having a think on thief cleric combo. It would only really make any sense in either:
The player begins as a thief, repents and becomes a cleric. Their thief skills remain at whatever level they are and they begin a second xp track starting at 0 for clerical skills.

Or

The player has been trained specifically by the church to recover religious artifacts that were taken during some great war or cataclysm.

Other than that it feels like it would be at odds with itself.
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Dimirag
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Re: No limits Multiclass

Post Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:03 pm

Statistically a Cleric/Thief has lower HP than a standard cleric or thief as he progresses in levels, plus, it has a lower AB than any of those.

The other things to consider are abilities, the Cleric/Thief would be limited in armor and weapons, a downgrade for both single classes unless the GM allows any weapon to the Cleric/Thief, so, it ends up as a matter of special abilities, at low levels the C/T will be at 1-3 levels behind than a full class of the same XP... if you can manage a concept of a sneaking, rogue-like cleric with lesser performance than both single individuals... go ahead, but I would really think about using this combo.
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ArtemisEntreri
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Re: No limits Multiclass

Post Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:52 pm

In fact, I was not thinkin' in terms of combos, be it good or bad. Most of my players don't care about efficiency itself and what I do is reskinning usually, without even looking at perfectly balanced supplements (i do like the material here, just pointing to a different perspective)... I refluff and allow.

So, in the end what you say is that they weren't included because (outside your personal tastes) they are suboptimal, right? I'm not sarcastic, just trying to get the point ;)
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kerc
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Re: No limits Multiclass

Post Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:06 pm

I have a dwarf magic-user in one of my current campaigns... He's considered to be an oddity, but not as an outcast. He's turned out to be really cool, especially with the level-0 and the magic-user expansion rules.
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Cryanhall
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Re: No limits Multiclass

Post Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:01 pm

For me, elves have always made sense as the sole multi-class race. I feel this way partly because their fey heritage makes arcane magic a natural fit along with another class, but also because they are the longest-lived race and would have had enough time and training to reach 1st level in two disciplines.
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