Unarmed Combat Variant

[MJLauck]

My thinking about allowing fighters, thieves and some clerics the full advantages of throws is pretty simple. It makes sense for fighters to learn unarmed combat; I don't think an explanation is necessary there. When it comes to clerics, as a long time student of a martial art derived from Shaolin Temple boxing, I can't exactly ignore very real world examples of clergy who also practiced various martial disciplines. They are not limited to Asia, either; there were many warrior-monks in Europe especially during the Crusades. It seems appropriate to me for at least clerics in the service of a strength or war deity to have extra fighting knowledge. That leaves thieves and this is totally a GM judgement call area. I personally imagine thieves who would study how to incapacitate people (like those pesky guards or mugging victims). I also know many players associate thieves with assassins/spies (dare I say ninja?)... if the world of the game being run sees the local thieves guild as basically a den of shinobi with faux Gaelic names, then it probably makes sense. If the thieves in your game are more concerned with shaving down the gold coins they collect through ye olde Ponzi scheme then giving them unarmed fighting skills is probably not right! And it may be that throws are not right for your thieves but allowing them advantages with future unarmed combat developments (like chokes, sleeper holds or submissions) is the way to go.

[Solomoriah]

AKCHUALLY...



OpenOffice.org is now Apache OpenOffice, and is being actively developed. The only problem is, "active" development for the Apache community is done in slow motion.

[toddlyons]

I did say actively developed. I must have blinked and missed it.

[MJLauck]

Okay, here is my first draft of Fantasy Fisticuffs. Currently it covers the rules for throws I proposed earlier but it may expand to include choking/subduing in the future. I welcome all input; thanks!

[MJLauck]

Just wondering if anyone has tried these in a game yet…?

[JugglinDan]

Just wondering if anyone has tried these in a game yet…?

The weekly game that I run probably isn't in a place where they could playtest these rules. I can give it a try if solo playtesting is acceptable. I've been doing solo RPGs for a few years now, and I find it a great way to learn new systems and mechanics without having to find willing players. I would probably just set up some simple combat scenarios and see how a martial artist goes against unarmed, armed, and beast opponents.

[MJLauck]

Of course; thank you.

[JugglinDan]

I will work on this over the coming week. I am going to pull a few characters out of Chrysogon's Coterie (since I'm proofreading that too) and then put them in into a series of gladiatorial arena fights. A couple will have weapons, but many will not. I will try a few different levels, and different combinations of strong but slow (high STR, low DEX), fast but relatively weak (high DEX, low STR) etc. Will report back once I make some progress.

And just like an arena, there will be the odd beast getting released

[JugglinDan]

I haven't gotten to my arena matches yet, but here's some proofreading finds:

• I think this sentence: "In fact, because the weight of armor may slow the target's reactions chain mail lowers a target's AC by 1 and plate mail lowers the target's AC by 2." reads better when split. Something like "In fact, the weight of armor slows reaction times and makes it harder to defend effectively against wrestling attacks. Chain mail lowers a target's AC by 1 while plate mail lowers the target's AC by 2."
• If you prefer the original, then there's a double space between "1" and "and" in "lowers a target's AC by 1 and plate mail".
• In Wrestling and Throwing section, I think it would be helpful if the reference to "the basic wrestling attack" mentioned this is from the core rules. People less familiar with the core rules may be expecting to find the "basic wrestling attack" in this supplement. I know I did at first and I've read the core rules cover to cover twice in the last few days.
• I don't think "clockface" is correct. Probably should be either "clock face" or "clock-face".
• If playing on a grid, the d12 to determine the thrown direction doesn't feel natural. Counting diagonals, there are 8 adjacent squares. Rolling a d8 to select one of those randomly might be easier. An image showing the numbering would help too.
• I would probably call the "controlling throw" a grapple, hold, or pin.
• If the advanced throws are used, why would a player ever choose the moving throw? The damaging throw appears to do all the same things, with the added bonus of causing damage.
• Honestly, I can't quite see the mechanical difference between a controlling throw and a successful wrestling attack (core rules). If they are meant to be the same, then I would just say so.
• I suspect that "In this case both the Strength and Dexterity bonuses apply attempting throws and damage." should read as "In this case both the Strength and Dexterity bonuses would apply when attempting throws." I don't think you need to specify which type of throws this applies to.

Also, to make sure I understand the supplement, I will try to list out the bare mechanical effects. Let me know if I've got any wrong.

• Armour and shields don't count towards AC for wrestling, but DEX bonuses do. I like this, even though it means tracking a second AC on character sheets.
• You have a chance to throw the defender instead of immobilise/hold them.
• The save to resist is immediate. A successful save converts the throw to a standard wrestling grab.
• 50% chance to land prone. Prone characters cannot use shields or two-handed weapons until they use their movement to roll over or stand up. But what does this really achieve since they can stand on their next turn? I guess they would still have the -4 AC penalty, allowing party members to get some attacks in.
• Damaging throws are exactly the same as the main throw except they also do 1d6 damage.
• Optional rule to use STR or DEX bonus on the melee attack rolls. Some characters wrestle with strength while others use speed and skill.
• Optional specialisation rule to allow both STR and DEX bonuses to stack on the melee attack roll. Not available to magic-users.

I like where this is going. I like the idea of having the option to throw or restrain an opponent. I'm just not seeing all the tactical advantages from throwing someone. With a wrestle hold, I give my party members an attack bonus of +4 and can immobilise the defender as well as automatically inflict unarmed damage (1d3) on subsequent turns. A successful throw moves the defender to a random adjacent square. Even if they land prone, it looks like they are not restrained and can roll over and stand on their next turn. So, I've used my attack to move the opponent a little bit but achieved nothing else apart from narrative flavour (unless they still have the -4 AC penalty from the core rules until they manage to stand). If this is the case, it should be specified. That would make throwing an opponent a situationally useful support move to make things easier for party members. It might work better than a standard wrestle where the attacker wants to do something else on their next turn.

Anyway, I'm tired now. I hope this rambling post is helpful.

[MJLauck]

I am in the Albuquerque airport at the moment and can’t get to everything I need to go through your thoughts. But:

The d12 landing is probably an unconscious personal preference because I use clock referencing when teaching real world martial arts! d8 for grids and d6 for hex is obviously smarter.

As far as why throw to move someone as opposed as throw to damage… throw to damage results in random movement, throw to move is attacker determined movement. Perhaps I muddied that… So if you are throwing someone into that horrible, bottomless pit that keeps making a groaning noise or you are throwing the prison guard into the rioting horde of escapees or simply moving the palace guard away from the door to provide the rest of the party free access, pick your direction. If you just want to dump that guard on his head then he is going to bounce in a random direction.

Some of this is also a little open for further development. I think being prone in a battle, honestly, is probably a near death sentence or at least a warm seat on death row so long as the attackers seize the opportunity. I know I need to go over rules about getting up, especially during combat!

About to board… thanks. Also, one more thing:

Don’t forget about throwing people from behind!